[The Grey Council of the Atlantis Magicians holds a meeting, discussing some important topic concerning Necromancy. This has happened a lot of years ago, when Tracer was still GM. (I'm not sure who was Protector those days but I think Maras successor Mandarb had already resigned.) Those days the fanatic ways of the Atlantis Magicians concerning religious issues were starting to take over the guild. Nonetheless this discussion shows clearly that back then a high level of senseful discussion had been possible among mages at a certain point in history.]
[A lot of wielding, dewielding, casting, greeting, writing, etc. deleted, for readability reasons, saves over 600 lines]
68 people are in the world, of these you know:
[Hey, it was in the good old days, when Xyllo was full of people]
You've entered the very top of the tower. This room is known as the council room of the grey magicians. In the centre of it, a large table is surrounded by several chairs. On one wall, a chart explains, how votings take place. A spiral staircase leads down.
There is one obvious exit: down.
A bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Elbereth is resting here, Khorin is resting here, Maedhros is resting here, Mandarb is resting here, Mohegia is resting here, Nelees is resting here, Occid, Stinger is resting here, Tracer is resting here and an one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
[Checking the votings]
Constitutional Rights
Initiator : Mara
Topic : see my note and, in case it vanishes, the book 'Rights' in the library, 2. Version
Started : Wed Oct 22 07:23:41 1997
PRO (13)
mara, corax, ondoval, curunir, elfgar, hawkeye, stinger, ligeia, maedhros,
elbereth, keziah, zaphodbo, embah
talisin, valcaran, gingali, mandarb, hermjard
> Tracer looks at the one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Tracer sings: can the creature please leave?
Khorin peers intently at the one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Followers of Bhaal
Initiator : Gilgalad
Topic : Forbid these mindless slaves of HIM to join the Guild of the Atlantis Mages. With their support for Bhaal they endanger magic itself. Therefore they won't ever become true mages.
Started : Mon Oct 20 19:53:28 1997
PRO (10)
gilgalad, talisin, mandarb, khorin, gingali, mohegia, mia, ligeia, elebor,
mystra, chaoss, keziah, nelees, samoht, curunir, ondoval, occid, stinger,
elfgar, frobenius, akorahil, hawkeye, zaphodbo, zoulou, maedhros
Guild Rule Nr. 2
Initiator : Gilgalad
Topic : Discard Guild Rule Nr.2. Every mage should have the right to defend his friends and principles, regardless if they are endangered by a mage or any other person.
Started : Mon Oct 20 19:50:56 1997
PRO (4)
gilgalad, talisin, beeblebrox, mia
nelees, keziah, samoht, curunir, ondoval, corax, occid, maedhros, stinger,
akorahil, mara, mystra, elfgar, olivan, embah, hawkeye, ligeia, zaphodbo,
zoulou, hermjard
Tracer sings: ok.. i think we should start now
Tracer sings: everyone knows what we are here today to discuss about?
Mandarb nods solemnly.
You say: Maybe we should make a list of topics.
> Occid sings: good idea mara ;)
Tracer sings: i think mainly we have one important topic for this meeting...
Mandarb nods solemnly.
Maedhros agrees with Tracer.
> Tracer sings: we should try to once and forever find a solution to this problem... or to at least find a way how we want to come a solution in a near future
Stinger looks at the one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Khorin peers intently at the one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Tracer sings: who's the master of this creature?
Khorin points at Mohegia.
Mandarb nudges Mohegia.
Mandarb smiles at Mohegia.
You've entered the very top of the tower. This room is known as the
council room of the grey magicians. In the centre of it, a large table
is surrounded by several chairs. On one wall, a chart explains, how
votings take place. A spiral staircase leads down.
There is one obvious exit: down.
A bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Akorahil is resting here, Elbereth is resting here, Khorin is resting here,
Maedhros is sitting on a chair, Mandarb is resting here, Mohegia is resting
here, Nelees is resting here, Occid, Stinger is resting here, Tracer is
resting here and an one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Maedhros tickles the one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Tracer sings: can it please leave?
Maedhros peers intently at the one-eyed scarred neuter creature.
Tracer goes hmmmm.
Nelees yells: fear it .)
Nelees chuckles politely.
Maedhros shrugs helplessly.
Khorin hastily lisps: fearit..
The one-eyed scarred neuter creature leaves down.
Maedhros sings: Well, it doesn't fear me...;)
Occid sings: heh.... not everyone breaks guild rules nelees :)
Nelees giggles happily.
Tracer sings: well.. after all this is a grey meeting, and not a creatures
PLOPPP...Khorin looks happy as he manages to remove the chin-strap.
Khorin removes a red gnomish hat with a wide brim and black feathers.
Khorin smiles.
Nelees yells: well, creature belong to evry grey, i suppose
Elbereth thinks .oO{interesting how many mages think this meeting is not important... or why are the absend? }
Elbereth looks thoughtful --- You wonder what secret thought Elbereth hides in the darkest corner of her brain.
Elbereth looks up with a twinkle in her eyes --- it seems a small bubble over her head bursts into thousend pieces.
Nelees yells: but you are also right .)
Stinger yells: well who knows.. perhaps it is possessed..
Akorahil snickers quietly.
Tracer sings: ok... then let's really begin
Maedhros sings: Do not speak such things lightly, as some people believe that a reson to kill.
Tracer sings: i guess there are some people who want to say something?
Mandarb nods solemnly to Tracer.
Maedhros smiles sadly at Stinger.
You say: sure.
> Stinger nods solemnly to Maedhros.
> Tracer sings: well.. then as there - for the beginning seems to be no one who wants to start, please begin, mara
You say: Let's see. :)
You say: What's this all about? I guess the opinions even differ in the beginning.
Elbereth: hesselma would you sweetly move yer body to the council room please?
Cray: hesselma left
Maedhros agrees with you.
You say: Some say it is about religion, some say it is about necromancy.
You say: Maybe it is about both.
> Nelees yells: hmm, i would suppose that it is about religion therefore necromancy is somthing no mage is allowed to use
Tracer says to Nelees: you may be right.. but please let mara continue
Nelees yells: sure
Stinger yells: but if you don't deny in every 2. sentence that you hate necros.. you are called a supporter of necromathy..
Nelees chuckles politely.
Tracer sighs deeply.
You say: It without doubt is about tolerance.
> Maedhros agrees.
Mandarb sings: ahem
Mandarb sings: one at a time should speak?
Tracer nods solemnly to Mandarb.
Stinger suddenly gets awaken as if he has heard something which he has missed in the last itme..
You say: Or, as Mandarb might say, it is about a danger for our guild.
> Akorahil smirks.
You say: We could even say: is it about the question if our guild should stay in the way it is nowadays? or should we better split up in smaller groups, so that we don't waste so much time on senseless discussions and can concentrate on magic again?
> Elbereth nods solemnly to you.
Tracer sighs sadly.
You say: So ... I'm not sure if the subject of this meeting is perfectly clear.
> Maedhros sings: I think the question of splitting up is the central issue, indeed.
You say: did I cover everything?
> Maedhros nods solemnly to you.
Tracer nods solemnly to you.
Tracer sings: well.. i think the main issue is the question if the freedom of believes in our guild can be still kept, and if, if it includes bhaal or not
You say: One solution to this might be to discuss these points here and formulate votings that represent the different ideas, with explaining comments in a book.
> Mohegia lifts her hand and a magic food ration appears.
Mohegia eats a magic ration.
Akorahil sings: Hmmm. I think this danger for our guild business needs some elaboration.
Tracer sings: but regardeless under which point we view it, it leads to the central question if followers of bhaal should be allowed to stay or not Mandarb nods solemnly to Tracer.
Khorin nods solemnly to Tracer.
You shake your head at Tracer.
> Mohegia agrees with Tracer.
Elbereth goes hmmmm.
You say: no ... that can be a consequence but i doubt it is the central theme
> Maedhros sings: Meaning if they should form a mages' guild of their own?
Elbereth sings: excuse me.... my god calls me to a sermon.
Elbereth stretches her legs and stands up gracefully.
Mandarb goes hmmmm.
You say: elbereth?
Tracer sings: i can't believe it
Mandarb sings: Elbereth, Rokoon won't strike you down if you miss a sermon
Elbereth bows gracefully to Tracer.
Maedhros sings: Well, you consider a religious sermon more important???
Maedhros peers intently at Elbereth.
Tracer sings: you deem a sermon is more important than a meeting of the council?
Akorahil sings: I disagree. The main question is, can this guild keep itself safe if a) there are followers of Bhaal in it AND b) all members spend a little consideration about the guild and not just their own benefits. You say: This is what I mean: What is more important here: Gods or Magic?
> Tracer sings: you're sure that you're in the right place here in the council?
Elbereth smiles.
Elbereth sits down to rest a while.
Mandarb sighs deeply.
Elbereth kneels down a prays a short prayer.
> Maedhros smiles friendly at Elbereth.
Elbereth sings: as you like.
Mandarb raises his hand.
Akorahil says to Elbereth: there are probably quite a few people in here who will miss out on a sermon for the sake of this meeting.
You've entered the very top of the tower. This room is known as the council room of the grey magicians. In the centre of it, a large table is surrounded by several chairs. On one wall, a chart explains, how votings take place. A spiral staircase leads down.
There is one obvious exit: down.
A bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Akorahil is resting here, Elbereth is resting here, Khorin is resting here, Maedhros is sitting on a chair, Mandarb is resting here, Mohegia, Nelees is resting here, Occid, Stinger is resting here and Tracer is resting here.
Stinger says to Elbereth: noone forces you..
Mandarb sings: in my opinion, it IS about magic Mara
Occid scratches his head.
Khorin nods solemnly to Mandarb.
Stinger yells: to shorten the discussion a bit.. i think we all agree here that necromanthy is and shouldn't be allowed in this guild or?
Tracer smiles.
Tracer nods solemnly to Stinger.
You nod solemnly to Stinger.
> Maedhros applaudes to Stinger.
Mandarb sings: people just don't think it through, no matter how many notes are written, they refuse to see the big picture
Occid nods solemnly to Stinger.
Maedhros nods solemnly to Stinger.
Mandarb nods solemnly to Stinger.
Khorin nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer sings: sure.. a first result...
Akorahil nods solemnly.
Occid sings: not everyone needs to have the same opionion than you mandarb
Tracer sings: the problem for us with bhaal - different from all other gods - is that he interferes with the basics of our guild, with magic itself
Mandarb nods solemnly to Tracer.
Stinger yells: and as we all know it is forbidden in our guild to learn, study and practise this foul art?
Mandarb sings: exactly
Khorin nods solemnly to Tracer.
Mandarb nods solemnly to Stinger.
Maedhros nods solemnly to Stinger.
You say: I have seen a lot of opinions on th boards, I have read the books in the library, containing opinions as well.
You say: Is there any proof for Mandarbs 'first thought'?
> Stinger nods solemnly.
Mandarb looks at the bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Mandarb reads a note titled 'logical thought processes'.
> Nelees looks at the bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Occid reads a note titled 'logical thought processes'.
20: logical thought processes (10.06.258)
Ok, since there are so many people, who I think vote without considering what their vote means, I decided to show my arguments against mages serving bhaal.

First thought: bhaal created true necromancy, this is the raising of the dead, draining life, etc.

Second thought: necromancy harms magic, evidence through the change in mana flows when necromantic spells are cast.

Third thought: bhaals goal is to rule the world, which would in include twisting and destroying true magic.

Fourth thought: followers of bhaal serve him and try to help him realize his goal...which includes the fall of true magic.

Fifth though: a mage who serves bhaal is a conflict of interest, mages are suppose to research the wonders of magic and expand its use, servants of bhaal try to help him accomplish his goal, which includes destruction of natural magic.

If anyone refutes these points, or don't think its clear, let me know, and be ready with evidence to back up your thoughts.

Mandarb al'Caldazar
--[20 of 35]---------------------------------------------------------------
> Maedhros looks at the bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Khorin looks at the bulletin board containing thirtyfive notes.
Tracer says to you: can you please explain this thought a bit more?
Maedhros reads a note titled 'logical thought processes'.
Khorin reads a note titled 'logical thought processes'.
Nelees reads a note titled 'logical thought processes'.
Tracer sings: i'm not able to have all notes in memory with their complete
You say: we've seen a lot of Necromancers turning to Bhaal.
> Stinger yells: i would like to know it either on which facts it is stated that there is a relationship between necromanthy and bhaal..i was told that what is written in some of our books are only personal opinions..
You say: but is the idea that necromancy is created by Bhaal true?
You say: if it were true, then Necromancy is no magic but miracles.
> Mandarb sings: what have you learned in your studies Mara?
Maedhros would like to know that indeed.
Mandarb nods solemnly to you.
Tracer sings: yes, mara, it's a kind of miracles
Mandarb sings: not exactly
Mandarb sings: but sort of
You say: So then the necromancers would be kinda clerics.
> Nelees nods solemnly to you.
Mandarb sings: no, because they don't have to worship bhaal
> Mandarb sings: and evidence i've heard, says that necromancy works more like magic, but has the power of miracles
Stinger yells: i think this we should remind: Necromancer mustn't be a followr of Bhaal..
You say: As much as I've heard about Bhaal he wouldn't give such power to unbelievers.
> Mandarb sings: explain cadderly then?
Maedhros sings: Ah, but that's the point, isn't it? It is not required for a mage who wants to become a necromancer to believe in Bhaal.
Mandarb sings: it doesn't matter if they don't worship him, a necromancer does bhaal's work reguardless
Tracer nods solemnly to Mandarb.
Mohegia says: I think cadderly is a special case ... anyone doesn't think so ?
Stinger says to Maedhros: i have said this in one of my notes.. from the 15 known necros only 3 have been before followers of Bhaal..
Maedhros sings: So, for fighting Necromancy, banishing the followers of Bhaal from our guild will yield exactly nothing.
Maedhros nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer says to Stinger: which three necros do you mean?
Mandarb sings: necromancers further the twisting of magic, which is one of bhaals goals
Akorahil sings: Mara's thought only implies that Bhaal demands less of his clerics than other gods... which is equivalent to saying his clerics have a more free will than other clerics...
Stinger says to Tracer: mith,beautiful
You say: mandarb, would you please not doubt my education here but give proof to the idea that Bhaal and Necromancy are more or less the same?
> Stinger says to Tracer: sorry mistyped.. 2
Mandarb sings: i was asking what you learned in your necromantic education Mara....
Stinger says to Tracer: counted accidently moonlady to them..
Tracer sings: mith...
You cackle gleefully.
You pat Mandarb on the head.
> Mandarb sings: Livilla
Tracer sings: with mith i first really noticed what bhaal can do to someone
Tracer sighs deeply.
Mandarb sings: don't pat me Mara....do think i forgot the advice you gave me when i was an apprentice?
You say: moonlady has become Bhaalie as well i heard ...
You sigh sadly.
> Stinger sighs sadly.
Maedhros sings: Well, it's true that necromancers further Bhaal's goal of twisting magic, but do mages who believe in him do the same? I think not.
Tracer says to Maedhros: they do.. in some way...
You say to Mandarb: which advice was that?
> Mandarb sings: let me ask you this Maedhros, where do you think the gods get their powers to act on our plane?
Stinger says to Tracer: in what way.. please explain this..
Tracer sings: they strengthen bhaals powers through believing in him
Mandarb says to you: you sure you want me to go into this with these people around?
Maedhros sings: Well, they wouldn't be Gods if they hadn't a lot of inherent power, I'd say.
You raise your eyebrow at Mandarb.
Tracer sings: but even gods use the mortals to increase their powers
You say to Mandarb: ah, I remember ... :)
> Maedhros sings: You mean that without anyone believing in a god, there would be none? If I was religious, I'd call that blasphemie...
Tracer sings: no.. i don't want to say there would be no god...
Akorahil sings: We are all assuming that all followers of any god are perfect followers.
Tracer sings: but i dare to say it would be far less powerfull than it is
> Stinger yells: i think we shouldn't make the mistake we hav emade already informer times to damn some peoples only cause they worship the wrong god, and force them to choose the wrong way of magic..
Maedhros sings: True, Tracer, but that would require the mortal's cooperation, would it not?
Tracer sings: it does...
Khorin says to Akorahil: do not forget that bhaalies gave their soul...
Tracer sings: and you give this cooperation in believing in a god, and attending to sermons and the like
Akorahil sings: Yet not all Rokoon believers aren't clerics... nor are all Asgoth believers warshrikes... i think we are mixing up professions and intensity of worship.
Stinger yells: and who knows.. perhaps they leave bhaal some day whechange their opinions..
You say: too bad we have no Bhaal believer here ... or do we?
You emote: Mara looks around.
Maedhros sings: I think Stinger has an important point there....
Occid agrees with Akorahil.
Tracer sings: it's not that easy to leave bhaal again, stinger, if he thinks that you're a worthy tool for him
You say: May I have your attention for a moment?
Stinger yells: it is rather easy to leave bhaal..
Maedhros listens to you.
Stinger yells: you must only know how to do it..
Tracer sings: i remember mith, and his tries to stay mage... but bhaal demanded of him to become necromancer... and he didn't have the powers to resist
Stinger says to Tracer: he got no support from mages to resist..
You agree with Stinger.
Tracer says to Stinger: he got... i was with him a lot of time that time...
Stinger says to Tracer: or have you forgotten how certain people behaved..
Akorahil says to Tracer: the question is, does the atmosphere of this guild offer the best chances of resisting Bhaal? Constant persecution and paranoia by fanatic mage followers of other religions are not what gives a man strength.
Stinger nods solemnly to Akorahil.
Tracer nods solemnly to Akorahil.
Stinger yells: or woman #!
Maedhros agrees sadly with Akorahil.
Tracer sings: that's only too true
Elbereth thanks Stinger.
You say: Stinger has a point here: We often drive those who believe in Bhaal into a corner - and the only exit they see is leaving us, becoming necromancer.
> Tracer sings: but even this should be no excuse
Stinger yells: it is no excuse.., but we should help to avoid it..
You say: That's a circle 'cause when we see that we think that we have proof for the idea that all Bhaalies become necros
> Akorahil sings: But it might be the vital difference.
You say: And so drive the next Bhaalie away as well.
Maedhros sings: Well, if someone kicks you in the teeth, it is at least a very good excuse for an excuse.
Elbereth thinks .oO{yes.. hold yer friends close but your enemies closer. }
Maedhros nods solemnly to you.
You nod knowingly to Elbereth.
Maedhros sings: elbereth Why enemies? As long as they remain mages...
Tracer sings: the questions shall not only be if we have proof that all bhaalies become necromancers, which i doubt
Elbereth sings: did I say something?
Khorin nods solemnly to Tracer.
Tracer sings: but if worshipping bhaal helps to destroy magic, even in this passive form
Khorin nods solemnly to Tracer.
Stinger yells: about bhaalies become necros.. i searched all of my brain and including the 3 bhaalmages which are know nowadays.. i know 7 which have resisted.. (but don't ask me for names.., cause i gave me word to don't tell them)..
Tracer sings: and this is a questions where we need the help of a bhaal beliver to get an answer
You agree with Tracer.
> Maedhros says to Tracer: But I'd say that without positive proof of that theory, we can't assume that worshipping a god strenghtens him/her significantly.
Stinger yells: and i ask again: is ther an undenyable proof about this bhaal-necromanthy relationship?
Tracer says to Stinger: i take it as a proof
You say to Tracer: take what as proof?
> Tracer says to Stinger: i wasn't able to find something that contradicts it
Akorahil sings: People who wish to remain magicians are people who wish to remain imperfect followers of their gods... Rokoon believers will use energy clouds although a book of Maligor states that this kind of use of power is disliked by Rokoon. And a Bhaal follower who refuses to use necromancy is obviously not doing Bhaal a favour.
Khorin agrees with Tracer.
Occid sings: that doesn't mean it's proof
Tracer smiles.
Maedhros nods solemnly to Akorahil.
Tracer sings: try to convince a god to come down and tell us their sight of it...
Tracer sings: they will be the only ones to really know...
Stinger yells: or can someone say in which visuable way a bhhal-followers corrupts our ways of magic?
Akorahil sings: A certain degree of independence from the deities is part of the essence of this guild.
Tracer nods solemnly.
> Stinger nods solemnly to Akorahil.
> Nelees yells: need to leave this world now, sorry
Nelees sits up and clambers to his feet.
Tracer sings: but as i said before, akorahil, it's the question if only
believeing in a god already supports him
Nelees waves quickly.
> Nelees leaves down.
Nelees: bye for now, mages, see you
Maedhros: Bye Nelees
You start to concentrate upon the spell.
> You tell Nelees: OOC wimp :)
A stout long haired female elf: bye Nelees
Stinger says to Tracer: i would reformulate it:from supporting to damaging our ways of magic..
Akorahil sings: I can only counter that by saying if the mortals' beliefs are then distributed amongst the gods then the world will be a compromise between the gods' wills. Isn't that desirable?
A spectral image of Nelees appears and tells you:

OOC: hehe :)

and the image disappears as quickly as it appeared.
Tracer sings: sorry?
Tracer says to Akorahil: can you try to formulate it again?
> Flock: Greetings Mages
Akorahil says to Tracer: Yes...
Akorahil says to Tracer: Do you think any mortal can judge which god's attitude is the correct one?
Mara: Hello apprentice :)
[When I think that this most intolerant of all mages was my own apprentice ... oh my, what a failure!}
> Tracer thanks Akorahil.
Tracer goes hmmmm.
Akorahil says to Tracer: and what a world might look like that is entirely ruled by one single deity...?
Akorahil sings: no matter which?
Tracer says to Akorahil: no... i doubt that... and i doubt that there's a single right attitude
Akorahil sings: I wouldn't dare.... even though i am a magician.
Tracer says to Akorahil: but there's only one god interfering actively with the magic we use
Akorahil sings: Exactly.
Mohegia says to Akorahil: But every single mortal has to choose how to life his/her life or ?
Maedhros sings: Well, at least we, as mages, can say that the idea of Necromancy, may it be created by Bhaal or not, is damaging for us, as mages.
Tracer nods solemnly to Maedhros.
Stinger nods solemnly to Maedhros.
You say: and disgusting as well. Rotten flesh ...
> You pout. Ah, don't take it so hard.
> Stinger shivers.
Khorin mentions: what me bothers in this discussion is, that you believe in other gods but you give your soul to bhaal and in my oppinion bhaal wants to corrupt and destroy magic. this means to me that every bhaal mage is a threat to our guild, because bhaal has his soul...
Elbereth sings: could you please try to act like grownups at least for a short moment please? ... To decide on or about gods is not our issue... it's OUR guild and nothing else -- I would say. we stand on a point at wich we have to take a decision. The prime point is bh**l ==> necromancy ==> desttruction of the mages guild, or in other words should we educate our own foes..... or am I wrong on that?.... let's talk about the 'what will happen if'.
Akorahil says to Mohegia: Yes... but don't individuals chose freely if not bound to a god?
Tracer says to Elbereth: we are not talking about the question if we are building up the necromancers of the future
Tracer says to Elbereth: everyone cann fall down somewhen in his life
Mohegia says: What Maedhrs said is very interesting ... we all agree that Bhaal created necromancy ?
Stinger says to Elbereth: this we do.. independant if we throw bhaal followers out or not..
Tracer says to Elbereth: we're discussing if belivers of bhaal are already passively supporting the destruction of magic
You shake your head at Mohegia.
Maedhros sings: I think, the main point still is: Does worshipping Bhaal strengthen the necromantic force that threatens our magic, not if following Bhaal carries a greater risk of becoming a Necromancer.
Tracer nods solemnly to Maedhros.
Tracer sings: yes.. this should be the question
Mohegia goes hmmmm.
> Mohegia says: Perhaps we should clear up, if necromancy comes from Bhaal then?
Akorahil sings: If people actually cared a bit more about this guild then Bhaal and his necromancers would have a tough time corrupting anything on this island.
Tracer sings: well.. mohegia, for me it's sure that necromancy comes from bhaal
Stinger says to Akorahil: this guild is less infected with necromanthy than in former times..
Mandarb sings: any big progress made? [had been @ld]
Stinger says to Tracer: can you proof it to me?
Tracer says to Stinger: no...
Tracer says to Stinger: i'm no god to be able to prove it
Stinger says to Tracer: but you are willing to judge anothe rmage cause of this?
Tracer says to Stinger: but can you prove it otherwise... or at least give something that i can start to doubt my opinions?
Stinger says to Tracer: i'm as honest as you (this is what i'm missing at the boards).. i cannot either..
Tracer says to Stinger: you see... we have all heared stories that necromancers have to give their soul to bhaal to become necromancers.. that's a point for necromancy being at least closely related to bhaal
Maedhros sings: Seems we are at an impasse. It all becomes a question of belief...
Maedhros sighs deeply.
Stinger nods solemnly to Maedhros.
Occid nods solemnly to Maedhros.
Tracer says to Stinger: if we could find a point speaking against it... it would be helpful
You say: We've had such a point, tracer.
> Akorahil sings: Is it known in whom Cadderly believes?
Stinger yells: now let me ask otherway: has one of our bh**l followers done something visuabe which supports your beliefs
Khorin says to Stinger: what about the books written by sangdrax and foranor? aren't they at least a hint for a proof?
Tracer says to you: which point?
Mandarb sings: i've heard he worships Huitzilopotchli
Stinger says to Khorin: some other mages told me that all what is stated there is no much more than bulls***.,
You say to Tracer: first the miracle or magic question and second the fact that it's not necessary to be Bhaal believer to be Necro nor vice versa
> Stinger says to Khorin: perhaps they can tell us their sources..
Akorahil sings: Well... and i've heard he helps the dark priests?
Mohegia says to Stinger: ts ts ts... how do you speak about Mages as old as you ?
Mandarb sings: older even Mo;)
Maedhros sings: Our books are lore, meaning they contain knowledge AND opinion of their authors, not THE truth.
Stinger nods solemnly to Mandarb.
Tracer says to you: no things speaking against it... if i want to corrupt someone, i give him some power first.. and he will demand more and finally fall down and i have him where i want him to have...
Akorahil sings: So isn't that evidence that if a necromancer furthers Bhaal's competitor's goals with necromancy, that Bhaal does not control the power of necromancy exclusively?
Stinger says to Mohegia: this about the bulls*** i got from mages which are as old as both..
Mandarb sings: no Akhor
Khorin says to Stinger: thats what i meant...at least they are telling some kind of a tale...shouldn't there be a bit of truth in it?
Mohegia smiles at Mandarb.
Stinger says to Mohegia: i only say for me they were no proff.. cause i never found a proof outside which would support the contence of the books..
Mohegia goes hmmmm.
Mohegia says: But do you know any force that is strong enough to bring a power like necromancy in our world ?
Akorahil says to Khorin: Well then the tale contains 'Bhaal is a God' there's your bit of truth even if the line goes on .. ' and he is the nicest guy in the galaxy.'
Stinger says to Mohegia: but i know a book in which you find a definition of necromanthy without bhaal..
Mandarb sings: well, there is the fact resurection is possible through necromancy....only a god can provide such power, i believe
Mohegia says: And I heard about cadderly being a Bhaal-Follower in his first days at necro too
Maedhros says to Mandarb: Some resurrection necromancy allows...
Maedhros shivers.
Tracer goes hmmmm.
Akorahil sings: Well if anyone calls making a ghoul 'resurrection' then there
Maedhros sees a difference between being resurrected and turned into a ghoul.
Mandarb sings: not a ghoul Akhor
Akorahil sings: ... is bigger perverts than me sitting in this room.
Mandarb sings: they can truly resurect you
Maedhros raises his eyebrow at Mandarb.
Mandarb sings: from what i've heard, its extremely damaging, but possible
Mandarb sings: i've seen the necromancer spell list
Maedhros sings: Well, I must admit, that's news for me, Mandarb.
You say: Let's play with open cards: There are some among us who know a bit of Necromancy because they have learned it in older times or because they have read the forbidden books. Can we draw any conclusions from that knowledge, even if of course we shouldn't have it at all?
Tracer nods solemnly to you.
Tracer sings: well.. i'm drawing part of my conclusions from it...
Suddenly the ground start to tremble. As you look down you see the head of a statue appear from the ground, then the body and finally the legs. Just a second later the statue of Keziah turns alive.
Mandarb nods solemnly to Keziah.
Akorahil sings: Hello Keziah.
Tracer greets Keziah.
Stinger yells: i never learned necromanthy but always tried to collect all infos about it to stay alive wehnconfronted with the,..
Stinger greets Keziah.
Keziah nods solemnly.
Keziah sits down to rest a while.
You say: When I was young I was soooo curious about this forbidden art ... and when Mandarb stumbled over a book i couldn't stand the temptation to read in it. (It wasn't explicitly forbidden by guild rules then.)
> Mandarb sings: hmm
Tracer nods solemnly.
Mandarb sings: i think it was Mara
Stinger smiles.
Stinger yells: i was always able to resist..
Tracer says to you: so what are your thoughts about it from your own experiences?
Maedhros listens interestedly.
You say: What I read made me think a lot.
> Keziah sings: I've never studied necromancy, as many of you would find hard to believe
You say: First of all it told stories of power.
> Maedhros sings: Why should I find it hard, Keziah? You're a mage, after all.
You say: But intermixed in these stories was evidence of horror I had never seen or heard of before.
> Keziah smiles at Maedhros.
Tracer nods solemnly to you.
Tracer says to you: please continue...
Stinger nods solemnly to you.
You say: Reading this book and gaining a little knowledge about Necromancy made me absolutely sure that Necromancy is the complete denial of nature and life.
> Stinger yells: therfore necros have problems with nature and healing spells..
Mohegia nods solemnly.
Mohegia says: I heard this too
You say: Even today after having made much more experiences ithis world, after having been Protector at this guild and faced hatred of my fellow mages ...
Stinger smiles at you.
You say: ... I know that there's nothing more absurd and horrible than necromancy.
> Tracer nods solemnly.
Stinger nods solemnly to you.
Maedhros agrees with you.
You say: (I'm totally sad seeing my friend moon having changed the company of friends with the company of rotten flesh and dripping slimy ghouls.)
You shudder.
You sob.
> Stinger nods sadly.
You look very confused.
> Maedhros comforts you.
You say: uh, back to topic.
You say: But as far as I remember in the whole book I haven't seen any word about Bhaal.
> Akorahil sings: Well i think i couldn't decide in an instant. I would have to think about whether a young orphan with its heart ripped out is so much better than a necro turning a tough pirate into a ghuol, sorry.
Maedhros sits up.
You say: That's no proof in neither direction, of course.
You say: but it is a hint, i guess.
> Tracer sings: for final proof we would have to ask a necromancer... but then there would be the question if we can trust his words...
Stinger yells: i have never seen signs of bh**l in the necromancer guild or seens signs of necromanthy at bh**l shrines (as far as i can visit them)
You say: hardly
> Tracer goes hmmmm.
Mandarb sings: there is probably one or 2 necromancers that if they told me, would tell the truth, but thats IF they told me
Tracer sings: perhaps some ideas what worshipping bhaal is about can help us to go on...
You say to Mandarb: Maybe we can invite them to a hearing?
> Mohegia says: Do you think it is a coincidence that most know necromancers believe in Bhaal ?
Tracer sings: keziah, you're worshipper of bhaal, right?
Maedhros sings: What about asking Entreri? Perhaps he could contribute some knowledge.
Mandarb sings: hmm, i have an idea
Mandarb sings: Keziah, can you tell us about the common themes of a bhaalie sermon?
Tracer sings: yes, mandarb?
Tracer smiles.
Stinger says to Mandarb: visit necros guild?
Keziah nods solemnly to Tracer.
Mandarb says to Stinger: the necro guild now, is much more protected than b4
Stinger says to Mandarb: with what kind? wasn't there some time..
Tracer says to Keziah: ok.. can you then please outline some basic thoughts of your religion?... sorry to repeat mandarbs question...
Keziah shouts: PLAY WITH US!
Oops, Keziah seems to have made a mistake.
Mandarb sings: hopefully we can trust you to be honest if you choose to answer Keziah?
Tracer says to Keziah: sorry?
Keziah sings: sorry, about that...
You curiously raise your eyebrow at Keziah.
> Keziah sings: well, lets see, the common themes...
Maedhros thinks . o O (Sounds like strange sermons...)
Khorin thinks . o O { he will never tell the truth }
Tracer looks at Khorin.
Stinger peers intently at Khorin.
Keziah sings: its rather intertwined in many ways, but yes, Bhaal is the god of death and destruction
Maedhros thinks . o O (Prejudices hail, we will prevail)
Khorin mentions: have i said something?
Akorahil says to Khorin: You had an ugly doubtful look on your face...
Stinger says to Khorin: your face said everything..
Keziah sings: and these themes are preached by our priests
Khorin smirks.
Mandarb sings: ok, one sec
Mandarb sings: Mara, was there themes of death and destruction in your readings
You say: Let's hear Keziahfirst, pleae
Keziah sings: well, I will explain a few things...
Tracer nods solemnly to Keziah.
Tracer sings: please continue
Keziah sings: and perhaps my beliefs will clear up what is preached
Keziah sings: Yes, I gave my servitude to Bhaal...
Keziah sings: but this is for the following reasons...
Keziah sings: He serves my purpose in life, but yet his intentions and actions in the world may be different
Keziah sings: I'm no goodie-goodie, and I won't pretend to be something I'm not
Keziah sings: I'm sadistic, and won't think twice most of the time before taking the life of a person, when there is a justified reason, under MY beliefs
Keziah sings: and I'm sure no other god would be accepting of this
Stinger smiles evilly.
Keziah sings: Bhaal doesn't punish me for killing, he doesn't punish me either for doing whatever I chose to
Stinger thinks evilly about the thieves he has tortured...
Keziah sings: and with time since, even before becoming a mage, I understood, that I could not stand by the side of the 'common good'
Maedhros hopes everyone remembers the moles with which most of us 'train'.
Akorahil grins evilly at Maedhros.
Keziah sings: as in my eyes, I have seen people, who claim themselves to be 'good' do things not even I would do
Tracer sings: please don't take this personal, keziah, but this really reminds me of necromancy... being cruel
Keziah sings: so...getting back to the themes
Tracer sings: and sorry for interrupting you
Stinger peers intently at Tracer.
Occid sings: being cruel isn't necromancy tracer
Stinger yells: cruelness is no privileg of necromanthy or bhaal..
Maedhros raises his eyebrow at Tracer.
Akorahil says to Tracer: Even if Keziah goes around pulling out people's fingernails and shoving burning sulphur up their backsides, what has that got to do with 'spells' that drain the potential?
Mandarb raises his eyebrow.
Tracer says to Stinger: yes?
Keziah sings: You all may claim you the connections to Bhaal for necromancy
Keziah sings: but my connection to Bhaal is my own, and I would serve no other god
Stinger yells: or any other follower of an evil god..
Keziah goes hmmmm.
Keziah sings: well, as I have said in my notes, never have I or any other believer that I am associated with, been instructed to seek out and destroy magic
Tracer nods solemnly to Keziah.
Tracer sings: i don't say such a thing
Keziah sings: necromancy was brought to this world perhaps by Bhaal, but I've even discussed this with some necros, and there are other explanations...
Tracer sings: let me explain why it reminds me more of necromancy than of other evil dieties
Mandarb nods solemnly to Tracer.
Keziah sings: and if necromancy is a gift for HIS believer's why would others that worships other gods be familiar with it?
Mandarb sings: no one ever said it was a gift from bhaal to his believers
You say: could we first listen to Keziah before discussing his words?
> Keziah thanks you.
Keziah sings: Its rather simple, I worship Bhaal for my personal reasons, and I dont' see how my personal beliefs should reflect how I'm treated as a Mage, being that I conduct myself, and follow the rules of the guild
Keziah sings: let me give you an example
Keziah says to Mandarb: you have said that in mage's believing in Bhaal they are empowering Bhaal to destroy magic?
Mandarb nods solemnly to Keziah.
Keziah sings: something like that if I'm correct?
Keziah sings: well Mand consider this...
Keziah sings: I believe in Bhaal and give him my faith
Stinger greets Elebor.
Akorahil nods friendly to Elebor.
Maedhros greets Elebor.
Mohegia greets Elebor.
Mandarb smiles at Elebor.
Keziah sings: and what Bhaal does with that faith is his decision
Keziah sings: just as if I charged a wand of inferno, and gave it to someone and they used it against a mage...
Elebor sits down to rest a while.
Keziah sings: would I be responsible for the act?
Keziah sings: I would hope not
Tracer says to Keziah: no.. this is only true as long as bhaal doesn't use it for supporting necromancy
Mandarb sings: but ther eis a big difference
Tracer says to Keziah: and... if you give someone some of your magic you're at least partly responsible what will be done with it
Mandarb sings: if you recharge a wand _knowing_ he uses it against a mage?
Keziah says to Mandarb: can any mortal know the thoughts of a god?
Maedhros says to Mandarb: How should one know that in advance?
Keziah nods solemnly to Maedhros.
Elebor looks at you.
Mandarb sings: the gods let their thoughts out through their actions, their followers
Tracer says to Keziah: as long as there is a chance that a god affects magic, it's your duty as a mage to take such thoughts into consideration
Keziah sings: well Tracer...I wish Chaoss was here
Keziah sings: I would best put it this way, perhaps I don't complete agree with the typical view of what necromancy is
Tracer sings: but i wanted to explain why necromancy reminds me of bhaal and not of some other evil god like huitzilopochtli for example
Keziah goes hmmmm.
Mandarb nods solemnly to Tracer.
Keziah sings: maybe because of the demons?
Tracer sings: no...
Maedhros sings: Well then, what about all gods not wanting us to know about energy, then? Doesn't our believing in any god strengthen their resolve to deny that knowledge to us?
Mandarb sings: let Tracer speak Maedhros
Akorahil nods solemnly to Maedhros.
Tracer sings: bhaal wants destruction and cruelity because just because of destruction and cruelty, as you said, keziah, right?
Keziah sings: well, as I was saying...If it exists, it exists (necromancy) for a reason, Everything in the world serves its purpose, and I am a player in the game of the gods, I serve my purpose, in believe in what I do, and in being a mage
Keziah nods solemnly to Tracer.
Tracer sings: huitzilopochtli for example uses this to get sacrifices for himself
Keziah goes hmmmm.
Stinger shrugs helplessly.
Elebor sings: of course, there might be some subjects where some followers of a god don'T fully agree with - but on the other hand, the basic things are clear, aren'T they ? So there are no followers of Rokoon, who run around and slaughter innocent lifes ... and nobody can call himself a follower of Bhaal, and deny that Bhaal is the enemy of every mage, in inventing this socalled convocation necromancy, and in such a basic thing, everyone who follows him, is somebody who is a danger for the mages
Keziah sings: well, I would say you associate necromancy with Bhaal because most necromancers are worshippers of Bhaal
Tracer sings: necromancy - at least as far as i know it - gives you tools for destruction and cruelty, like bhaal demands it..
Uh, duhhh... Feeling stupid, eh?
> Occid shakes his head at Elebor.
Tracer comforts you.
Keziah says to Tracer: I can be just as cruel and destructive with the spells I know now
Elebor peers intently at you.
Tracer nods solemnly to Keziah.
You say: elebor, would you please stay quiet until you know the subject of the current discussion?
> Maedhros agrees with Keziah.
Tracer says to Keziah: but necromancy is a much better tool for it.. trust me
Keziah goes hmmmm.
Elebor throws his head back and cackles gleefully!
Keziah sings: thats your opinion, Tracer
Akorahil says to Tracer: If you think that people can't be cruel without necromancy then i don't know if you've ever seen a dark priest tearing out hearts.
Mandarb nods solemnly to Tracer.
Elebor sings: MAra, who are you, that you dare to speak with me like that
Elebor grins evilly at you.
Mandarb sings: he is very right Keziah
Tracer says to Elebor: please be quiet at the moment, ok?
[thanks, Tracer - my, Elebor really made a pest of himself those days]
Stinger yells: i have seen followers of Rooon actiong cruel..
Tracer sings: i don't doubt that other people can act cruel
Tracer sings: and destructive
Elebor nods solemnly to Tracer.
: Mandarb: ugh, i have to get to class
Tracer sings: but necromancy is just made as the right tool for it
Elebor gasps in astonishment!
Elebor warmly comforts Mohegia.
Tracer comforts Mandarb.
Elebor sings: I see, Mohegia
Mandarb nods solemnly.
Keziah says to Tracer: ok, go on
Mandarb offers a green tome to Tracer.
Mandarb gives a green tome to Tracer.
Mohegia smiles at Elebor.
Mandarb sings: bye everyone, i hope something comes of this...
Mandarb stretches his legs and stands up gracefully.
Mandarb unwields a long, wooden staff.
Occid goes hmmmm.
Tracer sings: i don't know much about necromantic spells - only what i have seen of necromancers
Stinger waves happily in Mandarb's direction.
Occid sings: what's that tome about ?
Thorongil: bye mandarb
Tracer sings: but even this knowledge shows that their spells are explicitly tailored for destruction and cruelty
Suddenly Mandarb turns to stone.
Stinger yells: one of your convocation tomes?
Tracer says to Occid: it's about nature
Tracer nods solemnly to Stinger.
Occid goes hmmmm.
Occid sings: never seen one
Keziah nods solemnly to Tracer.
The statue of Mandarb crumbles to dust.
Tracer sings: and what i know of the convocation itself... reminds me of what you told me of your sermons...
Keziah sings: ok? and?
Tracer shrugs helplessly.
Maedhros sings: Sorry to interrupt again, but if necromancy is all about destruction and cruelty, why can it be used for resurrections, as Mandrab stated earlier?
Akorahil says to Tracer: energy reminds me of huitzi bolts... is energy evil?
Tracer sings: not more.. only that it reminds me of bhaal.. not of huitzilopochtli or any other evil god
Mohegia goes hmmmm.
Mohegia says: You ever heard how these 'ressurections' work ?
Tracer sings: maedhros, won't you find it cruel to be resurrected by a necromancer?
Keziah shakes his head at Tracer.
Tracer sings: it's too sad that vanja isn't around.. her knowledge of necromancy should be good enough to give us an answer to our questions
Mohegia growls.
Tracer sings: this is nothing against vanja
Mohegia sits back again.
Tracer sings: she has her knowledge from times where the necromancers were still part of this guild
Mohegia nods solemnly.
Maedhros sings: If he turns me into a ghoul, of course, but if they van truly give life to the dead, I don't see what is destructive about it. How a necromancer uses his/her spells is another matter entirely. As Keziah said earlier, it's no problem to be cruel with fireballs alone...
Tracer sings: and so has both - the theoretic knowledge about necromancy - and the possiblity to judge sangdrax book about the source of necromancy
Stinger yells: this should be a hint that necromanthy has nothing to do with bhaal..
Stinger yells: cause mages never had a lot ot do with gods..
Tracer sings: no stinger... that necromancy was once taught here in the guild can also be a hint that the source of necromancy is well hidden
Tracer sings: but as our discussion seems to turn in the same circles over and over again, does someone have an idea how we can find out about the source of necromancy without any doubt without having to learn it?
Keziah sings: I think its near impossible to find its 'source'
Maedhros goes hmmmm.
Stinger yells: for me necromanthy is the lore of undead, evil summonings and the powers to gain control over someone..
Tracer sings: because i really don't want to learn more about it... i resisted once, and it was hard enough
Tracer shivers.
Keziah sings: just as I think magic has always existed, so has necromancy
Elebor stares doubtfully at Keziah.
You say: Maybe I have an idea.
> Elebor sings: it has always existed, so you think?
Elebor grins slightly at you.
Keziah nods solemnly to Elebor.
Akorahil sings: We don't even seem to be capable to discern what effects necromancy has... how should we discover its source? Certainly it has nothing to do directly with pure cruelty as assumed earlier here.
Stinger quickly moves his hands, creating a glowing pattern in the air.
Tracer says to you: yes?
Akorahil sings: Besides, cruelty is also a tool to avoid further conflicts. I even developed an own spell based on energy that far exceeds the cruelty of energy clouds... to discourage attacks on me.
Elebor hides an evil smile.
Keziah smiles at Akorahil.
You say: Have you ever noticed that some of our convocations only cover spells of lower knowledge? The mind convocation spells are completely below 50, if I remember right. On the other hand you can find high level mind spells in the Necromancers guild.
> Elebor thinks . o O {an idea of Mara ... hmm ...}
Keziah says to Elebor: magic (including necromancy) has probably always existed, its just a matter of when the first being in xyllomer became aware of its presence
Tracer nods solemnly to you.
Tracer says to you: go on...
You say: What about focussing our research on high level mind spells? Maybe that would give us some traces to find out more.
Tracer goes hmmmm.
Stinger yells: ccrcall is mind 90..
Tracer sings: an interesting research area, true.. but i doubt that it will help us with this question
Tracer sings: besides... where do you have your knowledge of convo levels of necro spells from?
Elebor says to Keziah: I heard different things, that necromancy was kind of invented by Bhaal
Elebor agrees with Tracer.
Elebor smiles curiously at you.
You say: You can ... or could ... find a list at their guild
> Stinger yells: this was posted sometimes at our boards..
Tracer sings: ok
Stinger yells: i got my list of their spells from there..
Keziah says to Elebor: and I'm sure if Bhaal did invent necromancy, it was long before the birth of 'mankind'
Elebor says to Keziah: I am not so sure, I read in an old book, that there were already people inhabiting the lands, and they were experimenting with magic .. I Am sure you know about those old lores
Keziah says to Elebor: do you believe everything you read in book?
Maedhros sings: Well, what about this? Creating undeads is something that, afaik, is something that only necromancers can actively do. But we all have seen corpses rise and turn into ghouls time and again. Who or what creates them? If we could determine hat thier master was Bhaal, we had proof that necromancy, the Undead Art, is his. But if not, rising undeads from the dead could be considered a 'natural' thing and part of this world.
Stinger says to Elebor: if you think about the books in our lib.. i have already told here what some older mages (older then me) think about htem..
Keziah says to Elebor: just like Foranor's lovely story about how a mage burned Padorn down to the ground, and not how Rokoon burned it down to the ground?
Mohegia says to Keziah: If I don't believe books, how would I ever learn spells ?
Keziah says to Mohegia: I'm simply stating you shouldn't believe everything you read or are told
Stinger says to Elebor: and you can find books which tell you the opposite and have more trustworthy authors..
Elebor agrees with Stinger.
Keziah sings: anyways, lets get back to this theme thing.
Tracer nods solemnly.
Stinger says to Elebor: you may ask foranor where he got this wisdom.. cause he has written this book not a long time ago..
Tracer sings: for me it's still a fact that necromancy comes from or is supported by bhaal
Stinger yells: and i wish to have a proof before i condamn and throwout anothe rmage..
Tracer sings: this is what i learned in this guild a long time ago... how it seemed to me when i saw necromancers, and what i feel of it of own experiences
Keziah sings: I have one belief, I am a mage, until the day I chose otherwise, they guild cannot take this away from me, no one can take this away from me, I do my part here, for whatever reason drives me, I believe in whom I believe in but still accomplish what is expected from me, I have yet to hear of a rule that requires me to believe in a certain deity...so that is why I joined the mages
Maedhros agrees with Stinger.
Stinger yells: next we have to throwout all followrs of calric.., cause calric is allied to bhaal (is written in books too)
[Hmm ... the AMs never picked that up again?]
Stinger yells: where will this end? until there were only followers of the one true god around?
Mohegia goes hmmmm.
Tracer sings: i still don't know if we have to throw out all followers of bhaal - besides - i can't think of a way to find out if someone beilieves in bhaal...
Maedhros says to Stinger: And which one would that be?
Mohegia says: WHo is the true god then ? ... Dualdin, Rokoon, Tharandil ?
Stinger says to Tracer: or when such a mage leaves later towards bhaal..
Mohegia shrugs helplessly.
Keziah nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer sings: the whole dilemma is that we are somewhat dependant on gods
Tracer sings: regardeless what god it may be
Keziah nods solemnly to Tracer.
Maedhros nods sadly to Tracer.
Stinger nods solemnly.
Stinger yells: but as a mage.. are our actions guided by our gods or by our attempts to learn,study and practise the Arcane Arts?
Maedhros sings: I hope the latter!
Tracer sings: i think most of our actions are guided by ourselfs
Akorahil sings: I read somewhere that Rokoon once burnt down Padorn to destroy the human race... I wouldn't want to force any human to believe in him so discrimination of religions might end up where we don't want to go.
Keziah nods solemnly to Akorahil.
Stinger yells: this is a rumour i don't believe too..
You emote: Mara .oO{only the humans? that's ok with me ...}
> Stinger peers intently at you.
Mohegia gasps in astonishment!
Occid agrees with you.
You giggle fairyly.
You say: mind readers, eh?
> Maedhros says to you: We ARE mages, so why not? ;)
: Stinger: how does this thinking works?
: Mohegia: either you want us to see it, or don't type it without ooc, please
: emote
> : Akorahil: emote . o O etc.
: Stinger: ok..
Stinger looks thoughtful.
You ponder the situation.
> : Mohegia: And if you type it with the bubbles, I can read your mind ... perhaps in the way you chuckle at Akhorahils statement ...
Stinger yells: but when you say that our actions are guided by oursleves then is the discussion not snseless?
Akorahil says to Stinger: You have a point there.
Stinger yells: and is leading your arguments ad abusrdum?
Tracer sings: no... the discussion as i started it - which surely has been forgotten - was if believeing in a god already supports the gods cause
Tracer sings: as you give your god support for his cause, even so you do it passive
Maedhros sings: Again, I think that until we have proof that worshipping Bhaal strengthens Necromancy, this discussion is moot, lest we want to condemn people without reason.
Stinger yells: but if you behave like a mage.. you then don't support our causes too?
Tracer sings: it's the possibility of supporting necromancy that is the problem.. and if this is already be done by believing in bhaal
Stinger yells: is this enough to damn someone and leave only one other possibility of performing magic?
Maedhros sings: Are we willing to condemn some fellow mages just because of suspicions?
Stinger yells: and then think about the following: perhaps you are wrong and generate a lot of new necros.. you would cut into your own feet..
Tracer nods solemnly to Stinger.
Elebor nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer sings: i think about these things, too
Keziah nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer sings: that's one of the reasons why i don't want a hasty decision about it
Stinger yells: and then you must think about the following: whats worser? a bhaalie mage or a bhaalie/non-bhaalie necro?
Mohegia says: If they become necros after being thrown out, don't you think that they would become necros sooner or later too ?
You say: Vega ... or was it Melba ... pointed out that she's living in contradictory circumstances. To do this openly is honourable in some way. The question I'm thinking about is, based on a note of one of them: Is it possible to give the soul but not the brain to a deity?
> Tracer sings: no... this is impossible
Keziah sings: my thoughts are my own, my soul belongs to Bhaal
Stinger says to Mohegia: the first we are guilty off.., the second is then their decision..
Tracer sings: both are connected
Keziah shakes his head at Tracer.
Tracer sings: they are
> Tracer sings: my thoughts and my soul are one
Akorahil says to Tracer: But believing in Rokoon strengthens him then as well, and he forbids energy clouds and infernos for his clerics (according to this book by Maligor), and i happen to love energy clouds. So i'd be a hypocrite if i followed Rokoon and claimed to be a good follower of his if i scorch this world with energy clouds.
Tracer sings: a thing i experienced everytime when i was dead
Keziah sings: thats nice Tracer, maybe mine are split because I'm evil
Tracer nods solemnly to Akorahil.
Tracer sings: yes.. but rokoon doesn't suppress energy itself, as far as i know
Mohegia says to Akorahil: I don't claim to be a cleric for whom e-clouds are forbidden
Keziah sings: as far as you know...
Maedhros sings: Well, I believe in the God of Forests, and still I burn wood to warm me...
Tracer sings: but i'm not a specialist for rokoon
Keziah sings: nor a specialist of Bhaal
Tracer sings: nor a specialist of bhaal
Tracer sings: but i know more of necromancy than i know of rokoon miracles
Akorahil says to Mohegia: Then, forgive me, you are a second-rate follower of Rokoon. Do you want to deny Keziah the right to be a second-rate follower of Bhaal because he avoids necromancy?
> Keziah chuckles politely.
You emote: Mara giggles at Akorahil.
Keziah laughs.
Maedhros sings: Always presuming that Necromancy is a creation of Bhaal, Akhorahil...
Elebor sings: and - maybe I am completely wrong, but - as long as a mage (even if this is true with Rokoon forbiding energy clouds) just limits himself, this is no problem that is concerning the whole guild
Keziah sings: It probably is, as I won't deny, so whats the point?
Mohegia says to Akorahil: But aren't we still at the question, if I strengthen Rokoon with believing in him ?
Tracer nods solemnly to Mohegia.
Maedhros says to Mohegia: At least we should be...
Stinger yells: i think not believing supports a god.., acting is the thing which is requested..
Mohegia goes hmmmm.
Stinger yells: when the clerics only believe in their god they die when they meet Huitzis.., they have to act to stay alive and to defend their cause..
Mohegia says: So a healer would strengthen Tharandil ?
Stinger yells: supports Tharandils cause..
Stinger yells: perhaps...
Tracer sings: it's the basic question how dependand gods are on us mortals
Stinger yells: i'`m only a mage.. my experience withreligious things is rather low..
Akorahil says to Mohegia: IF Keziah supports a deity who created necromancy then you support passively a deity who -might- want to eliminate energy clouds and infernos because of their brutality... and they are magic- so it is at least reasonable to suspect Rokoon of trying to suppress magic as it is reasonable to assume Bhaal created necromancy and wishes the downfall of natural magic as we profess it.
Stinger says to Keziah: you use nature and healing spells?
Keziah nods solemnly to Stinger.
Akorahil asks Keziah: Do you refresh convocations?
Stinger yells: then she isn't supporting necromanthy..cause nature/healing are the opposite of necromanthy..
Keziah nods solemnly to Akorahil.
Keziah says to Akorahil: all the time
Tracer nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer sings: good ppint
Tracer sings: point...
Keziah pokes Stinger in the ribs.
Keziah sings: he :)
Keziah smirks.
Maedhros says to Keziah: Although your soul (and thoughts, according to some) belong to a god who hates nature and healing?
Keziah nods solemnly.
Mohegia says to Akorahil: But then again you just argue from books, you read, what you want to forbid me
Keziah sings: Bhaal hasn't told me to stop or not do it
Akorahil says to Mohegia: Purely a demonstration of what can be done with twisting words...
Keziah sings: when he does, or if I feel I have problem, I'll either leave the guild, or find some other solution
second later the statue of Chaoss turns alive.
Akorahil says to Mohegia: I don't mind your using energy clouds, i only wished to demonstrate that we can't easily interpret gods' doings.
Maedhros sings: That, I think, tells us something, if not about Bhaal, then about the freedom of his 'slaves' to work against him!
Keziah smiles.
Stinger yells: i cannot say if beleiving in a deity supports the cause of the deity.. but keeping our knowledge and performing our spells is supporting our cause..
Tracer nods solemnly to Stinger.
Mohegia smiles at Chaoss.
> Chaoss smiles.
Akorahil nods solemnly to Tracer.
Oops, Akorahil seems to have made a mistake.
Akorahil nods solemnly to Stinger.
Tracer sings: stinger.. i can't say that it's my opinion about bhaal and necromancy that you're offering.. but you're giving good arguments...
Mohegia says to Akorahil: I just meant that you argue on basis of books too now ... and we are not allowed to take Sangdrax words as true ?
Mohegia says: but Maligors ?
Keziah nods solemnly to Stinger.
Mohegia says: Who is not nearly as long cleric of Rokoon as Sangdrax Mage ?
: Keziah: sorry..must go
Keziah stretches his legs and stands up gracefully.
Keziah bows gracefully.
Stinger yells: Vanja, Froebnius
Keziah waves solemnly.
Maedhros waves happily in Keziah's direction.
Stinger yells: Stormdragon..
Chaoss waves happily in Keziah's direction.
Suddenly Keziah turns to stone.
Chaoss goes hmmmm.
Mohegia says: What is with Vanja, Stormdragon and Frobenius ?
The statue of Keziah crumbles to dust.
Tracer sings: well.. perhaps we then should try to collect information from those three then first before we continue this discussion...
You nod solemnly to Tracer.
Akorahil says to Mohegia: You misunderstand... i am not arguing upon books .. i wished to demonstrate that just using a book, written by a mortal, and the fact that i never saw a cleric casting energy clouds, i can push you into the defensive... merely a rhetoric exercise to demonstrate the futility of us seeking to know Bhaal's motives.
Chaoss sings: where is the point of ergue this time?
Mohegia comforts Tracer.
Tracer sings: but we should try to at least set a date when to continue this discussion...
Mohegia says to Akorahil: I now refrain from using books as arguments, and you try to push me with them into a corner ?
Mohegia looks confused.
Maedhros sings: Any suggestions for a new date?
Tracer shrugs helplessly.
Tracer sings: i don't know how long we have to wait for answers...
Tracer sings: but i think one @week should be enough
Akorahil says to Mohegia: That you were my target is purely coincidence and i do not intend to really push you in a corner... i just wanted to show that one shouldn't push people into corners from pure assumptions and half-truths.
Tracer sings: i will try to set up some letters to vanja stormdragon and frobenius, aswell as sangdrax about it
Chaoss says to Tracer: for what?
Tracer nods solemnly.
Chaoss says to Tracer: can you please repeat for me in 2 words?
Tracer sings: if you continue the discussion, can someone of you please mail me if there have been some new ideas?
Tracer says to Chaoss: sorry, can you please ask someone else, i have to leave for @reasons
Chaoss says to Tracer: ok.
Chaoss smiles.
Elfgar trots in.
Elfgar smiles.
Tracer waves friendly.
Chaoss sings: ok can 1 plese enlighten me?
Tracer sings: sorry to have to go so soon...
Maedhros: Bye Thorongil
Chaoss waves happily in Tracer's direction.
Occid smiles at Elfgar.
Maedhros waves happily in Tracer's direction.
You say: I'm tired now and need to think ... if you ask me, a break is fine.
Maedhros agrees with you.
Akorahil sings: I will then too depart soon.
Mohegia says: it just ended